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Rebe
03-21-2013, 11:19 PM
Math is ds's weakest subject -- always has been. He doesn't "get" it and never has.

We've been using Teaching Textbooks since about 7th grade and it's been fine for him. He's done Algebra 1, Geometry, and is now doing Algebra 2.

So we went to the college he may attend and asked, what does he take for 12th grade math (because they require 4 years of math :( ). The math chair said, since he's not planning on a STEM degree, there's no point in taking pre-calculus. Ds doesn't want to take trig. Math chair suggested statistics. All I remembered from statistics in college was that it was so hard and so boring that I dropped the class after two weeks. :eyes:

I then went online and the only statistics classes I can find are college level or AP. I don't think there is any way ds can take an AP math class -- that's just not going to happen. I found suggestions on putting together my own class, too, but then I'd have to somewhat "teach" it and I can't do that.

So ... on to plan B. I checked out The Potter's School (because they have real classes in real time with real teachers) and they have something like Functions Statistics Trig, which is designed for non-math majors to take in 11th or 12th grade. I asked about it, and they said with using Teaching Textbooks, ds may not be ready for it. They suggested taking a summer Algebra Review course to prepare for this 12th grade class.

I am so confused. It seems like I'm spending an enormous amount of time and energy (and soon, money) on finding some class that ds will hate and probably not do well in, and all because he needs a 4th year of math. I'm very aggravated right now, so thanks for letting me vent.

Business math, personal finance, consumer math, etc. are all out of the question, BTW. But he's considering going to community college for two years so that they don't look at the high school transcript anymore, and just look at the college transcript. Then he'd just have to pass college algebra, somehow. The only problem with this is that we don't know that's what he'll do. He may go to this 4-year college as a freshman, in which case he needs to take the right courses next year to get in.

What would you do? Any ideas for me?

Miranda.in.WA
03-21-2013, 11:49 PM
Does your community college have a running start program? I had one do running start for 2 years, and one spend her senior year taking some running start classes and then transferring into university as a sophomore.

On the university side, they were much more concerned with her SAT scores than her transcript and the classes contained therein. The ease we had with the college of her choice (private college) entering as a transfer student makes me want to go the same route with my 15yr old ds here at home.

My advice would be to look into community college hybrid courses, math 101 and 103 possibly. The hybrid online classes are somewhat similar to TT as far as the lecture being done on the computer blackboard and answers entered on screen.

Just a thought? So excited for you and your son! The next year will fly by! Enjoy it :)

CINDY LB OH
03-22-2013, 08:43 AM
What about something like this? Statistical Reasoning in Sports (http://www.highschool.bfwpub.com/Catalog/product/statisticalreasoninginsports-firstedition-tabor)

I looked, and Amazon has it too (http://www.amazon.com/Statistical-Reasoning-Sports-Josh-Tabor/dp/1464114056/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1363956660&sr=8-1&keywords=Statistical+Reasoning+in+Sports). You can even rent it for half the price. It actually looks kind of interesting; I might see if my library has it :lol:

Becky in CA
03-22-2013, 11:06 AM
Looking at the Table of Contents for TT Pre-Calculus, it looks much more like functions/trig than what I would call pre-calculus. If it were me, I'd probably continue with TT, if it's working, and possibly search for another math after finishing that. I guess I might not fully understand the dilemma.

Laura JL
03-22-2013, 11:11 AM
Looking at the Table of Contents for TT Pre-Calculus, it looks much more like functions/trig than what I would call pre-calculus. If it were me, I'd probably continue with TT, if it's working, and possibly search for another math after finishing that. I guess I might not fully understand the dilemma.

This is what I was thinking. DD is finishing TT Pre-Calc and it does appear from what I've gone through w/ her that it's more trig. For 12th she'll move to the local college for a duel-enrollment and based on her test scores they think she'll place in Calculus but we haven't done the office placement test. We plan to do the same for middle ds.

I do like the looks of the Sports Statistics - I'm wondering if that could be a math elective for a sports fanatic.

Susan Seaman
03-22-2013, 11:26 AM
Can you find a co-op or a tutor? We have several co-ops in town, and they all have several math options.

I think statistics is not hard at all compared to trig. and pre-calculus. Why is business math or accounting not an option?

Hollie in SC
03-22-2013, 01:17 PM
:group:

Our state group has this for college prep:
Required:
Algebra I, Algebra II, Geometry & a 4th math course such as Advanced Math, Pre-Calculus, Calculus, Trigonometry, Probability and Statistics, or Discrete Math.

What about Dual Enrollment? Would the 4 year school accept something like college algebra from the 2 year school? I don't know what is available. I do know that suggestion was made in some high school workshop I've sat in somewhere. :spin:

Rebe
03-22-2013, 04:05 PM
Thank you all so much. I am calmer now, but still confused (not your fault! My fault. My ignorance of upper-level math, that is).


On the university side, they were much more concerned with her SAT scores than her transcript and the classes contained therein. The ease we had with the college of her choice (private college) entering as a transfer student makes me want to go the same route with my 15yr old ds here at home.


Yes, they sure do want to know that ACT score, don't they? Wish I had a dollar for every time they asked him for it while we were there. ;) His score is good because it's so high in verbal. Math was extremely low. Fortunately, they only want to see one combined number. But this is a STEM school (it's complicated why he wants to go there, not being a STEM student), so those math courses are important to them.


What about something like this? Statistical Reasoning in Sports (http://www.highschool.bfwpub.com/Catalog/product/statisticalreasoninginsports-firstedition-tabor)


Maybe -- but if it looks "lightweight," (as in the Sports aspect of it), they probably wouldn't like that. Unfortunately, I know so little about math I wouldn't know if it was acceptable by looking at the TOC. Although, it did say it met the Common Core requirements, so that's a plus (I can't believe I'm saying something good about the CC...).


Looking at the Table of Contents for TT Pre-Calculus, it looks much more like functions/trig than what I would call pre-calculus. If it were me, I'd probably continue with TT, if it's working, and possibly search for another math after finishing that. I guess I might not fully understand the dilemma.

Thank you! I thought I had to abandon that idea, but maybe I don't! Maybe TT Pre-Calc would be fine. But again, me looking at the TOC is useless. I don't even know what it's talking about. I took Algebra 1 and Geometry in h.s. and that was it. That was all I needed, back in the day. It's coming back to bite me now.


This is what I was thinking. DD is finishing TT Pre-Calc and it does appear from what I've gone through w/ her that it's more trig. For 12th she'll move to the local college for a duel-enrollment and based on her test scores they think she'll place in Calculus but we haven't done the office placement test.

Thanks! Another opinion that TT might be okay. He likes TT -- the first thing he wanted to know is whether TT had Statistics (they don't).


Can you find a co-op or a tutor? We have several co-ops in town, and they all have several math options.

I think statistics is not hard at all compared to trig. and pre-calculus. Why is business math or accounting not an option?

See above -- picky STEM school won't accept "lightweight" math, i.e., something you'd actually use in real life. :eyes:


:group:

Our state group has this for college prep:
Required:
Algebra I, Algebra II, Geometry & a 4th math course such as Advanced Math, Pre-Calculus, Calculus, Trigonometry, Probability and Statistics, or Discrete Math.

What about Dual Enrollment? Would the 4 year school accept something like college algebra from the 2 year school? I don't know what is available. I do know that suggestion was made in some high school workshop I've sat in somewhere. :spin:

Yes, that list is pretty much exactly what they want to see. As for college algebra now, I don't think he's ready for it. I'd like to see him get another year of maturity under his belt before tackling it. Although, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it'd be better to do it now while he's still living at home. I may look into that.

WendyW
03-22-2013, 05:44 PM
As for college algebra now, I don't think he's ready for it. I'd like to see him get another year of maturity under his belt before tackling it.

I personally wouldn't be afraid of college algebra, based on personal experience- though that experience is a few decades old.

When I was in high school, my dad was working on a college degree. We had the exact SAME Algebra book! The only difference was I had an entire year to get through it, and he had one college semester to finish it. A few years later, I took a college algebra course myself and again, though it was a different book, it was the same info at a faster pace. If he's doing Algebra 2 successfully, he should find college algebra to be mostly review.

Laura JL
03-22-2013, 05:46 PM
See above -- picky STEM school won't accept "lightweight" math, i.e., something you'd actually use in real life. :eyes:

Most of the colleges we've looked at - not to mention our accountability group requires it - want to see 3 years of advanced math beyond Alg I. So since dd was ahead for math that is where we were able to put a Consumer Math course in but it would only count as an elective for Math -- which apparently as an elective it's thought of as great, but for a "real" course to fulfill math credits it's not okay.


Yes, that list is pretty much exactly what they want to see. As for college algebra now, I don't think he's ready for it. I'd like to see him get another year of maturity under his belt before tackling it. Although, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it'd be better to do it now while he's still living at home. I may look into that.

Do you have a local community college? You might find it helpful to take him there and discuss duel enrollment options. They generally have a placement test that he would need to take and it will give you the info as to whether or not he's ready for College Algebra. You might be surprised. I know that College Alg was all that was required when I was a college adm for most majors w/ the exception of some science, engineering or math majors -- but by the time my oldest attended college College Alg was considered more remedial and College Calculus was required even for Liberal Arts majors. DD has had a number of friends that aren't as strong in math as she is take College Alg at the local Community College or some smaller religious schools for 11th or 12th grade and did great with them.

CINDY LB OH
03-22-2013, 06:52 PM
I don't think the Sports Stats is a lightweight course. Major universities like Ohio State have sports-based stats classes as an Into Stats course. And it works to cover common core requirements which now include statistics. Yes, common core isn't all bad. :lol:

Read this article if you are interested in learning more. (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/06/education/edlife/at-moneyball-u-what-are-the-odds.html?_r=3&pagewanted=all&) You can always contact the school he wants to go to and see what they think too.

Rebe
03-24-2013, 12:39 PM
On the difficulty of college algebra, here's why I'm a little leery of it: twice in the past year, girls in our family have dropped out of college because they couldn't pass college algebra, and it's now required to pass it to graduate, regardless of major. :( Our nephew's new wife was going into early childhood ed and would have been fabulous in that field. Our niece was going into photography and is talented. Now the first girl is in cosmetology school and the second is in a tech school for medical assisting. Which is fine, I guess, but not what they wanted to do -- all because they couldn't pass this course that has nothing to do with their degree or their future career.

But that's the way it is now, and I realize he's going to have to take it and pass it. But that explains why I am leery of having him take it at age 17 if he can wait a year for his math-brain to kick in. Already this year he's doing better in math, and I think it's just because his brain wasn't mature enough for it before -- or whatever it is that you need brain-wise to understand algebra.

Cindy, I agree that the statistics course would be enough (although I'd check with the college first). The thing I'm concerned about is that it's not a class with a teacher. If I can't teach it (and I can't), then he'd be entirely self-taught -- or am I missing something? This was just the textbook, right -- not an online class or something? So I don't know if we'd be able to go that route.

So I think the best choices are:
Sports statistics without a teacher
TT Pre-Calc, which may be a better option than I had thought
Dual enrollment for college algebra if the college will accept that

Laura JL
03-24-2013, 04:15 PM
Of the 3 options you've narrowed it down to -- if you're concerned about him needing more maturity than I'd go ahead and do Pre-Calc w/ TT. That would give him his 4th adv math for college pre-reqs and give him another year to mature.

Unfortunately what your niece and nephew experienced isn't new. I left the college adm field almost 19 years ago and College Alg was the minimum required at the majority of institutions I dealt with even for elem ed and early childhood ed. That is one of the reasons I've pushed math so hard w/ my kiddos bec I saw too many kids back then that entered college w/out the grasp of math concepts that they needed for college algebra. Now, most of the majors my dd is looking at and even when oldest went to college college alg was a "remedial course" that wouldn't count for graduation credit and calculus or calculus for non-math/science majors is the new minimum.

CINDY LB OH
03-24-2013, 04:18 PM
Rebe-- That's odd about the girls having to pass college algebra specifically. It must just be the particular colleges they went to? Both my daughters have to take one college math course (and pass), but it doesn't have to be college algebra. Dd21 took a statistics course, and dd18 hasn't taken her's yet as a freshman. She'll probably hold out as long as possible :lol:, but she has many options from which to choose that will count. The one who likes photography... why doesn't she just do some online courses or take some individual courses without worrying about a degree. There are lots of wonderful photographers out there who don't have degrees, but are self-taught. It's sad to see people give up their dreams when there are other ways.

Yes, you are right about the sports stats; it's just a book, so it would have to be self-taught. Unless you know of a math geek in your area who would love to teach it to a group of boys, then maybe your best bet is to go with the TT Pre-Calc. If he did fairly well with algebra 2, then he may do just fine with it.

CINDY LB OH
03-24-2013, 04:24 PM
Laura-- That's interesting. The college my dd21 goes to requires everyone to take statistics. I know my dd18 has to take a math/logic class, but I'm not sure if there is a specific one required for her major. I know it's not calculus though.

ETA: Just chatted with my dd18, she has to take statistics as well.

Donna in MO
03-28-2013, 08:54 PM
Unless you decide to stick with TT for that year, I think my suggestion would be to go to the community college and have him take a placement test for math, then take whatever math class (remedial or otherwise) the test places him into at that comm. college. Even if he has to take a remedial class before College Algebra, this seems like it would be the simplest way to accomplish the goal AND insure that it'll meet the requirements of the college-of-choice.