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Lisa in Ft. Worth, T
10-05-2009, 11:44 AM
. . .doing 4-digit multiplication. You know for a fact that it is not too hard because they did it with ease last year and is very age appropriate. Now, for whatever reason, they cannot do them well. The student has ADHD and has decided they do not like doing them because "it takes too long to do the problem".

The student is given 12 problems each day. They usually get between 6 - 9 wrong. Other times, it's perfect or just 1-2 wrong.

Does the teacher keep plugging along with this student until this is mastered again (this has been going on for about a month) or is the student told there will be X # of additional problems to do if they get more than X# wrong?

BTW, this isn't one of my children. My friend is having difficulty with one of hers and she doesn't know what to do. She really does feel this is a behavioral thing - not an aptitude thing.

Thanks for any help you could provide us with.

Michelle Pfeifer
10-05-2009, 12:07 PM
If she knows he knows how to do them, I'd move on, but there would be at least two or three 4 digit problems assigned every day until he consistently got them right. Maybe let him know that once he shows he can do them, he'll be allowed to use a calculator for them, but not until he's mastered the process.

Has she tried to analyze why he's getting them wrong? Is it something consistent or is every problem a different story? If the latter, then it is probably just laziness and trying to get out of something. If she sees the same mistake cropping up in all of the missed problems, that would be an area to address.

My DS1 had a difficult time focusing on these kind of problems. I know he knew how to do them, but he'd miss half of the problems and each one would have a different reason to be wrong, so I can emphathize.

This is a hard one. We use MUS and even Steve Demme says these kind of problems are what calculators were invented for. ;)

Rachel Jane
10-05-2009, 12:09 PM
I would give this child 6 problems. If he gets one of the six incorrect, he gets another problem after fixing that one. If he gets 2 wrong, he corrects those two and gets two more.
I would explain that this is NOT punishment, but practice and as soon as the practice shows fruit he will have less of the four digit multiplication to do.

Lisa in Ft. Worth, T
10-05-2009, 12:33 PM
Has she tried to analyze why he's getting them wrong? Is it something consistent or is every problem a different story? If the latter, then it is probably just laziness and trying to get out of something. If she sees the same mistake cropping up in all of the missed problems, that would be an area to address.




Yes, she says it's something different every time. She really does believe in her heart that it is laziness.

Thank you, Michelle. I'm going to pass along your response to her. I appreciate your help! :yes:

Lisa in Ft. Worth, T
10-05-2009, 12:40 PM
I would explain that this is NOT punishment, but practice and as soon as the practice shows fruit he will have less of the four digit multiplication to do.


She is VERY careful about explaining why we have to these every day and why we get "extra" at times.

Okay. She may be going "too much" at one time. Where do you stop in your suggestion, RJ? This student is very sweet and loving but can be lazy and manipulative - very strong-willed, but again very loving. So the student has gotten 2 out of 6 wrong. They correct their 2 after 2 different tries and have gotten the 2 NEW ADDITIONAL problems wrong. So they go back and correct those. Do they get more on top of those after corrections are made. I'm telling you the student will most definitely do this. They will push you to the limit so, we need to know where the line is between "standing your ground - not being manipulated" and "loving but firm".

I'd really love to hear your input here. You seem to do a great job at the "loving but firm" thing. :kiss:


To be clear, I'd still love to hear from ANYONE who thinks they could help. My friend is feeling rather defeated with the manipulative behavior that is going on.

Rachel Jane
10-05-2009, 12:53 PM
Well, I can be pretty stubborn. ;) She has to decide whether or not she feels this is an important area in which she needs to dig he heels or not.

I would have the child continue all day long. Child may do nothing else until he cooperates BUT ONLY IF IT IS TRULY STUBBORNNESS. If it is for any other reason, this is just cruel and will totally backfire No outdoors time, no electronics, no reading, no snackies...

How about if she starts w/four?


How far would I go? Until he did what was asked. Again, only if I was CERTAIN it was a cooperation issue and not an understanding issue.

Chelsea
10-05-2009, 02:19 PM
My son has bipolar disorder and some hyperactivity and he does the same thing when things take too long (in his own mind, which means anything that makes him stop and process). I used to adjust things to go easier on him and it made things worse. In my personal experience the best thing has been to make him continue until it's done, no matter how long it takes him. Schedule it for the last subject of the day so that he cannot play until it's complete. That's a pretty big motivator. When my DS throws fits about work that makes him stop and think a while, I send him down to his room until he's ready to focus.

Every child is different, but that's what works for mine. Depending on what type of day he's having, his work can take ten minutes and be 100% correct, or it can take an hour and a half with multiple corrections and a failing grade. It's not that the material is hard, it's all about his attitude. Cutting him slack when it's an attitude problem in our home only leads to more frequent attitude problems.

Lisa in Ft. Worth, T
10-05-2009, 07:02 PM
Chelsea, I'm passing along your comments of experience also. Thank you! :)

DD in IL
10-05-2009, 07:07 PM
I would not have a student doing 12 or more problems of the same type each day. If they know how to do them, I would think 4 problems would be sufficient to keep them from forgetting how. I am just not into a lot of repetition every day. I would rather them do 2 or 3 each and understand than 12. That being said, I would make it MY idea and not let the child think you are cutting him stack because of attitude. I would just circle 4 of them on the page and say these are the ones to do for today. However, if you give me attitude or do not do them correctly, then we will be doing more.

Judyn
10-05-2009, 10:58 PM
You say the child is manipulative...which means they are smart. I think that if the person lightens the load right now...the child will know that they have "won". They fought it until you gave up. Just my opinion, but I wouldn't loosen up UNTIL he showed that he was willing to meet the expectation (completing 12 problems and being obedient). What a wonderful reward for obedience, to see that his load is lightened the very day he/she showed mastery and showed a teachable heart.

If the parent is 100% sure it is student choice/disobedience, then to me it becomes not a school issue, but a heart issue. I would confront the problem and keep on keepin' on.

Lori D
10-06-2009, 02:11 AM
There seems to be a few issues here. If it were me- not that I am right, I would give one problem every day. If that problem was wrong, then I would sit with my child and have him solve it with me. I know I am lowering the bar a lot, but it would allow mom to find out what else might be going on.

If a child can do one 4 digit math problem correctly, he can do 10. To a child that has ADHD, every problem after the 1st is going to be more frustrating-- and looking ahead to the rest of the problems may even start him out frustrated. One problem printed on a 1/2 sheet of large squared graph paper would probably seem much more manageable.

If laziness is the issue, I might chose to work it on in the chore department- maybe on how vacuuming is done. And, if math is the only place that this is happpening, I would question whether laziness is the issue.

From experience, I try to never make school a point of contention. Not that I cannot be demanding and exacting at times, but timing is everything. I have made my child complete a math assignment that overwhelmed him and sat while he was cried through the whole thing- it taught me to not issue demands that I really don't want to keep. My intention is not to frustrate my child, it is to motivate him.

I know that I have disagreed with a few of the posts here-- I don't want to contend that I am correct in this assessment. For my homeschool, it is how I would see the situation. :)

Cheryl from NY
10-06-2009, 01:32 PM
I might suggest assigning a few problems, then have the student check their own work with a calculator. If there are mistakes, corrections will be made before the work is handed to your friend. Knowing from the onset the only option is to hand in problems that are worked correctly may eliminate 'rushing through' or 'careless errors.' This way your friend would be able to gently shift the responsibility to her student... Does that make sense?


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Lisa in Ft. Worth, T
10-06-2009, 01:48 PM
I might suggest assigning a few problems, then have the student check their own work with a calculator. If there are mistakes, corrections will be made before the work is handed to your friend. Knowing from the onset the only option is to hand in problems that are worked correctly may eliminate 'rushing through' or 'careless errors.' This way your friend would be able to gently shift the responsibility to her student... Does that make sense?


.

That is a great idea, Cheryl. I'm going to do this for my son. We go through some of this ourselves at times (his issues are greatly heightened by rainy weather).

Lisa in Ft. Worth, T
10-06-2009, 10:53 PM
I've spoken w/my friend again and she is so appreciative of your responses and help. :yes: She's got a plan! :clap:

shonda in ca
10-07-2009, 08:04 PM
My intention is not to frustrate my child, it is to motivate him.



I love this! Beautifully put! :clap:

Lisa in Ft. Worth, T
01-10-2010, 12:47 PM
I just wanted to let you all know my friend's student is MUCH improved. :clap: She used several techniques from this thread and it is working. She believes that this the student was competent in this area but she thinks that the ADHD is more the problem than anything and that maybe fueled the bad attitude.

She thanks you.

Even I have learned a few things because her student it not so very different than one of mine and subsequently, I have used this in a couple of instances with success.

Great stuff!! :thumb: