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Jennifer in MS
04-08-2011, 01:17 PM
How should (or should) Christians respond to past sins committed before being saved and past sins committed after being saved? Bible verses would be a tremendous help.

What brought this up is that a brand new Christian was just kicked out of her church by her pastor (no elders where in the meeting) for a sin committed before she was a Christian. (The meeting was also a huge ugly set up) I personally feel this was wrong but don't know scriptures enough to back up my opinion or the pastor’s.

The youth pastor has committed the same sin after becoming a Christian and while the youth pastor. He was asked to not lead the youth for 2 months then reinstated.

Some of the youth are quite shaken about all this.

Rachel Jane
04-08-2011, 01:18 PM
:eek:
My initial response to this is not very Christian, so I will refrain for now... :mad:

Linda
04-08-2011, 02:03 PM
:unsure: I think I'll have to go with RJ on this one and remain silent for a bit.

The first verse that pops into my mind is Psalm 103:12
as far as the east is from the west,
so far has he removed our transgressions from us.

Carol S
04-08-2011, 02:11 PM
Hmm. I'm guessing he hasn't preached lately on the parable of the servant who was forgiven a large debt but then refused to forgive the small debt owed to him.

There are examples of how to handle sin in the church, but I can't think of anything whatsoever that would justify excommunicating someone for sins before they followed Jesus.

I guess I better hold my tongue now, too. Praying that the young woman will find a community full of grace and love.

TonyaP
04-08-2011, 02:21 PM
Ephesians 2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+2&version=ESV)
Titus 3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Titus+3:2-4&version=ESV)
John 13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+13:34&version=ESV)

Peter 10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+10:33-35&version=ESV)
Romans 7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+7:5-7&version=ESV)
Corinthians 5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians+5:17&version=ESV)
Hebrews 8-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+8&version=ESV)
Matthew 6:14-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+6&version=ESV)
Matthew 18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+18&version=ESV)

These are some of the Scriptures I would suggest you study. Whether you are ever called to address the issue with anyone else directly, you should know in your own mind where you and each of us stands with God. We cannot do enough on our own to be acceptable. It is only through Christ's sacrifice that we are saved and every one of us needed that sacrifice.

Rachel Jane
04-08-2011, 02:24 PM
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Robin in Colorado
04-08-2011, 02:25 PM
John 8:7 "Let any one of you who is without sin throw the first stone at her."

Romans 6:4 "... that we too may live a new life..."

2 Cor 5:17 "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: the old has gone, the new is here!"

Hebrews 9:15 "For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant."

James 3:1 "Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly."

John 13:35 "By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

Romans 13:8 "Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law."

2 Cor 13:11 "Finally, brothers and sisters, rejoice! Strive for full restoration, encourage one another, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you."

Galations 5:13 "You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh ; rather, serve one another humbly in love."

Ephesians 4:2 "Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love."

Matthew 7: -5 "“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."

Luke 15:7 "I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent."

Hebrews 8:12 "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”

John 4: 39-42 "Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” So when the Samaritans came to him, they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. And because of his words many more became believers.
They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

Psalm 103: 12 "12 as far as the east is from the west,
so far has he removed our transgressions from us. "


Friend, we CAN NOT hold non-believers to Biblical standards. Period. Whether they become believers or not. And once she became a believer, HER SIN IS NO MORE. Jesus said so, and if it's good enough for Him, it ought to be good enough for any of us, especially a pastor, who (see above) is held to a higher standard than the rest of us.

However, the youth leader does deserve church discipline - if he committed of this caliber WHILE A TEACHER he should be removed from his position as a youth leader. If he has repented, he should do so before THE ENTIRE CHURCH. Then he should be restored to fellowship but not to the position of teacher. If he has not repented before the church, or if he continues in the sin, he should be removed from fellowship.

Here (http://bible.org/article/church-discipline)is a teaching about it with scripture.

Rachel
04-08-2011, 02:31 PM
I'll hold my tongue, but say that that this makes me so sad. But in reality, maybe she doesn't need to be in that church anyways.

I'm sorry she had to deal with that.

Rachel Jane
04-08-2011, 02:38 PM
There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.

Sheri
04-08-2011, 02:41 PM
wwwwwwwoooowwwww!! Not going there. But oh my word. I am stuck on "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" but I know that's just not really what you are looking for. I am hurt for her. So sad.

Rachel Jane
04-08-2011, 02:46 PM
In concern for that pastor: But whoever shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Rachel Jane
04-08-2011, 02:48 PM
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me.” Galatians 2:20

Rachel Jane
04-08-2011, 02:49 PM
For he has made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Jodi B
04-08-2011, 03:33 PM
:eek1: :angry: The pastor should be removed from his positon -- he is missing the whole point of being saved!

John 3:16-21:


16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

Note there is no asterisk (*) behind it -- we wholeheartedly and willingly repent and accept Christ, we are forgiven.

Jennifer in MS
04-08-2011, 03:36 PM
Thank you so much. DH is actually friends with one of the youth's dad. I have met them but don't know them well. I will go over all this with DH tonight. Then he can talk to his friend.

I worry that Satan is using this pastor for evil. Tim and I are both immature Christians but we have questioned several of this pastor's decisions. It isn't our church and until now it didn't seem anyone was getting hurt. So we didn't push our opinions or research it. Now at least 3 have been hurt (one being the friend's DD17 whom is dating the youth pastor) and could be many more.

KarenF
04-08-2011, 03:47 PM
Lots of support for forgetting old sins.

Maybe the question should be what Scriptures support holding a Christian's sins against him? If that were the case then we would all be going to hell. Jesus did say, "It is finished."

ETA: the above is just about how Christians should deal with old sins. The believer still needs to have consequences- however harsh that might be.

MelissaSS
04-08-2011, 04:15 PM
Wow :eek:

Lisa in AL
04-08-2011, 04:30 PM
:eek: If past sins are held against us, then none of us have a chance. I read something about this recently on Grace to You (http://www.gty.org/). Basically, John MacArthur said: Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 2 Corinthians 5:17

I do think that sins have consequences that we have to live with after salvation. But you don't kick people out of church because they are living with consequences!!!! I don't think that is what you are talking about here, though.

So sad!

Jen in SC
04-08-2011, 04:39 PM
How very sad. :sad:

And by the way, the church is the body of Christ. Her pastor can't kick her out of that! :clap:

Jennifer in MS
04-08-2011, 05:15 PM
How very sad. :sad:

And by the way, the church is the body of Christ. Her pastor can't kick her out of that! :clap:

I agree that he can't kick her out of the body of Christ. I worry that his actions may cause her to feel that she isn't worthy to do God's will and she will pull away from God. I also worry about the message that is being sent out to the youth. It is okay for boys to do what they want but a girl can not be forgiven.

Jen in SC
04-08-2011, 05:18 PM
It's really terrible that this happened. My husband is meeting with a new Christian now who is struggling terribly with some pretty awful sins...stuff that is rarely even discussed in churches. I keep praying for this guy to just keep coming. Our enemy heaps such guilt and condemnation on us without our brothers and sisters adding to it. Sigh...

So, so sad for your friend. Glad she has you. :group:

Oney
04-08-2011, 06:19 PM
:eek:
My initial response to this is not very Christian, so I will refrain for now... :mad:

Um yeah.... me too.

Kendall in GA
04-08-2011, 07:48 PM
What brought this up is that a brand new Christian was just kicked out of her church by her pastor (no elders where in the meeting) for a sin committed before she was a Christian.

:mad: My first thought was that her former pastor did her a favor....IMO, she needed to flee faster than he could have kicked her out.

You've gotten great scripture...Prayerfully, you'll be able to minister to your friend and she'll have ears and a heart to receive it!

Dawn Gilmore
04-08-2011, 08:49 PM
Praying that she will find a new church family that has a better understanding of grace and forgiveness than this pastor does.

Nedra
04-08-2011, 08:51 PM
How should (or should) Christians respond to past sins committed before being saved and past sins committed after being saved? Bible verses would be a tremendous help.

What brought this up is that a brand new Christian was just kicked out of her church by her pastor (no elders where in the meeting) for a sin committed before she was a Christian. (The meeting was also a huge ugly set up) I personally feel this was wrong but don't know scriptures enough to back up my opinion or the pastor’s.

The youth pastor has committed the same sin after becoming a Christian and while the youth pastor. He was asked to not lead the youth for 2 months then reinstated.

Some of the youth are quite shaken about all this.

I would be beyond shaken. This is just wrong. Period. Just NO. If everyone was kicked out of church because of sin the every church building would be empty. No pastors would be there either.

Nedra
04-08-2011, 08:52 PM
:mad: My first thought was that her former pastor did her a favor....IMO, she needed to flee faster than he could have kicked her out.


AMEN Kendall.

Nancy Ann
04-08-2011, 09:17 PM
:mad: My first thought was that her former pastor did her a favor....IMO, she needed to flee faster than he could have kicked her out.

You've gotten great scripture...Prayerfully, you'll be able to minister to your friend and she'll have ears and a heart to receive it!

:clap: Yep, Yep :clap:

Ami
04-08-2011, 10:26 PM
:mad: My first thought was that her former pastor did her a favor....IMO, she needed to flee faster than he could have kicked her out.


Agreeing with Kendall.

Tricia O
04-08-2011, 10:33 PM
I'll hold my tongue, but say that that this makes me so sad. But in reality, maybe she doesn't need to be in that church anyways.

I'm sorry she had to deal with that.

My DH said essentially the same thing. :sad:

laurie in ok
04-08-2011, 10:48 PM
I am praying for that entire church. With a pastor like that, I have to wonder if anyone of them have any understanding of salvation! Praying for your friend to be wrapped up in God's grace!

KristenS
04-11-2011, 06:00 PM
Thank you so much. DH is actually friends with one of the youth's dad. I have met them but don't know them well. I will go over all this with DH tonight. Then he can talk to his friend.

I worry that Satan is using this pastor for evil. Tim and I are both immature Christians but we have questioned several of this pastor's decisions. It isn't our church and until now it didn't seem anyone was getting hurt. So we didn't push our opinions or research it. Now at least 3 have been hurt (one being the friend's DD17 whom is dating the youth pastor) and could be many more.

Um, not to sidetrack the conversation, but am I reading that last part correctly, that the youth pastor is dating a 17yo? Because that's totally a conflict of interest, etc etc... I hope I got that wrong, but it raised a red flag so I thought I'd ask.

Not even gonna touch the other one ... I agree that another pastor would be much healthier for the young lady in question, though.

Sue C
04-12-2011, 02:43 PM
Um, not to sidetrack the conversation, but am I reading that last part correctly, that the youth pastor is dating a 17yo? Because that's totally a conflict of interest, etc etc... I hope I got that wrong, but it raised a red flag so I thought I'd ask

I questioned that also Kristen.

As for the lady being kicked out of 'church'........we better all leave the churches because none of us are without sin, past and present! That pastor is a VERY poor representitive of God's grace.

Robin(CA)
04-13-2011, 12:41 AM
The same thing jumped out to me Kristen, but I was *really* hoping that I just read it wrong . . .